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02 March 2010 @ 12:04 am
Spike Didn't Believe Her  
Several posts lately about Spuffy in one shape or another has made me ruminate more than I like on my journey to post-Spuffiness.   So I wrote it all down and then tore it all up.  There are a lot of different versions of being a Spuffy.  The only one that is universally agreed on is that all-Penguin AU Spuffy is the best thing ever (cause, well, it just is).   But one of the big differences in versions of Spuffy is whether it's a Buffy POV Spuffy or a Spike POV Spuffy.  I'm Spike POV all the way.   And something in the way I'm Spike POV makes me want to stomp around when people I love and respect say that Spike believed her.  Herewith a bit of history and an argument.


I'm bad at dates.  But I think it was four and a half years ago that I watched BtVS in a two month blitz.  I remember rooting for Buffy and Angel the first time around.  Not sure when I caught Spuffy fever or fell harder for Spike than I have for any fictional character ever, but I think I raced through season 7 in a day and a half for the sole purpose of finding out if she was ever going to tell him.

At first the end sat really well with me.  Spike died a hero.  I thought it was beautifully tragic and even more heroic that he died not believing her.  And I do think he didn't believe her.  That's  part of the Whedon formula of what makes a hero heroic.  Spike died, joyously, beaming, even though he never got what he wanted.   He didn't get what he wanted (the effulgent Ms. Summers).  He became what he wanted (effulgent).  

But then I wanted for Spike to get what he wanted.  The heroic pristine ending was nice, but I wanted my boy to get what he wanted.  So there was a blaze through AtS, and no joy.  Spike not only didn't get any validation that Buffy might actually have loved him -- he got a pretty clear indication that she not only didn't love him, but she was perfectly happy to fall in love with some guy who was amoral.  Good thing Spike valued the soul on his own -- which he did.  Cause it really didn't get him anything.  I like that he didn't quit on that, or even seem to consider it.  

But I still wanted for Spike to get what he wanted.  So I read fanfic.  Intensively.  For at least two years.  I don't read much any more and comment rarely.  But I have read oceans and oceans of Spuffy.  Literary Spuffy and schlock Spuffy and written-well-enough Spuffy.   Granted, I've only gotten to all Penguin AU Spuffy lately, but I just don't think there's any other category of Spuffy I haven't slogged through.   And at the end of all that Spuffy?  I came to the sad conclusion that Spike could only get what he wanted if we lost what I loved about his heroic journey.  Which makes sense, of course, since the shining beauty of Spike's sacrifice is that he did it without getting what he wanted.  I recognize I was asking for the impossible here.  But it didn't make me any less frustrated about not getting it.

I finally got a bit of solace when I got my brother invested in BtVS.  He watched with a passion and we wrote hundreds of pages of analysis back and forth.  Bro, who is very, very wise, was quite sure that Buffy *did* love Spike.  I wish I could dig up his most beautiful post on the subject, but it was as pretty in words as molly_may's  picspam was pretty in pictures.   He did a running narrative of how Spike rose in the rankings steadily through season 7, finally clearing the Angel hurdle in Chosen.  Molly's picspam came out around the same time, so I had a few days when I was a believer.  Buffy loved Spike.  I was even more excited when the preview pages to the first issue of season 8 retconned TGIQ, since TGIQ was the piece I had the hardest time wrapping my head around.  And I look at Molly's pictures again and it reminds me of why Spuffy was so beautiful and why it's good to be a Spuffy.

I could be a Spuffy on these terms.  Buffy actually did love Spike.  Spike didn't believe her (for reasons I'll go into in a moment).  Spike delayed contacting her.  Spike think he *did* contact her (sort of) in Rome.  He thinks she knows he's back.  He thinks she's moved on anyway.  But someday Andrew's deception could be brought to light.  Probably it'd tragically happen after one or both of them had definitively moved on.  But it'd cement the "if only" of it all.  If only Spike knew that Buffy loved him...

But I think those are the only terms on which I could be a Spuffy.  I can't be a Spuffy if Spike believed her but stayed away because he was too afraid.  Mostly cause to believe that requires a different understanding of their relationship than the one I had.  For me, what's great about Spuffy is that it's always moving.  Season 7 Spike is NOT season 6 Spike.   And somehow to get Spike to a place where he believes Buffy loved him but runs away misses elements of Spike's growth that matter a great deal to me.

We debate Seeing Red endlessly, but I think it's important to see what Seeing Red was to Spike.  Spike had gone through a good chunk of season 6 completely believing that Buffy loved him or was on the brink of loving him.  That's *the* button that got pushed for  him in the bathroom.  He went in to apologize in a non-pushy way, but the minute she says something that makes him think there's feelings, he's back to insisting.   And he ends up insisting too hard, far too hard, and crosses a big line.  That was shattering to Spike.  In the moment he comes to himself, he's dumped with the horror that his actions have almost certainly closed off any chance he ever had of  having her love him.  But even more horrifying had to be the realization that he'd been wrong about her having feelings in the first place.  He was horribly wrong about that in the bathroom.  By extension he'd been wrong about it all along.  Spike was sure he knew Buffy.  Lots of Spuffies take it as gospel that Spike knows Buffy.  That's why they think Spike believed her.   But Spike's lesson in Seeing Red is that he can NOT trust his instincts about what Buffy feels.  Whatever he might sense from her, Buffy does NOT love him.  And he needs to be sure that he hears her when she says No.

Then he goes and gets a soul.  To be a kind of man, the kind of man who wouldn't...  make that sort of mistake again.  The soul comes with new knowledge.  It tells him that he's a murderer.  That he deserves to go to hell.  That's not a good basis for mustering a belief that one can be loved or that one should be loved.  The soul gives him new insight into Buffy's feelings.  She hadn't been with him because she loved him; she'd been with him because she hated herself.  Buffy tells him he's got her right -- that she had been all about the self-hatred and that she had been using him. 

This is a man with very, very good reasons to not remotely begin to make assumptions about Buffy loving him.  He's come back to Sunnydale because for him it's still all about her.  But he's come back to help.  He knows it can't be more than that.  He tells her they both know that she doesn't love him.  She doesn't correct him.  When she has a date with Robin, he offers to clear out.  Her answer gives him a glimmer of hope.  She's not ready for him to not be there.  But he asks about the principal and she gives him silence.  He continues to be of help, though.  That leads to there night of closeness.  And Buffy, for once, initiates a conversation about feelings.   Notice that she had to initiate it.  Spike's not going to initiate conversations about emotional closeness with her.  That way lies much badness.  But when Buffy does initiate it, he hopes for a moment and he asks her what it means.    Does it have to mean anything?   Spike sees the door shut again, and backs off in a hurry.   The answer is still no, and he's learned his lesson about not pushing very well.

Then he gets to see the snog between Buffy and Angel.  He is comfortable enough with his own *friendship* with Buffy to push back a bit on her presumption on his own feelings.  He lets her know that it hurt to see her with Angel.  But his bottom line is that he's basically there to give her what she needs.  A friend she can trust.  One who isn't going to insist on there being feelings that aren't there.

Sorry for going on.  Spike has a lot of reason to not believe her.  It's a carefully constructed stance that allowed him to go back to Sunnydale and make what amends he could -- by being of service to her, on her terms.  When she coughs up the I love you in the hellmouth we might believe her.  But we don't have anything like Spike's elaborate defense against ever letting anything remotely like Seeing Red happen again.  But he does have that defense.  And in the world view that goes with it, she's thanking her dying friend for his loyalty by letting him hear the words they both know he's always wanted to hear.  And so he thanks her for saying it.  

Spike doesn't go hiving off to see Buffy after he gets back.  I think it's because he quickly learns that she's doing fine and doesn't need him.  I think it's because he wants space to start getting over his own feelings for her.  Should he have let his friend know he was back?  Maybe.  But I think he always planned to.  And I don't blame him for wanting to set up a life for himself before letting Buffy know he was back.  He's been of service to her to the point of death.  There's no more amends to be made.   And once he thinks she knows he's back he's going to let her have what he's let her have for all of season 7 -- the initiative.

I'm sure there are other ways of narrating Spike's journey.  But I love a Spike who actually learned and grew.  He woudn't have gotten to hero if he hadn't been Love's Bitch.  But he wouldn't have finished the journey if he hadn't also learned how to let her go. 

 

 
 
 
Rebcake: ats_ciao_ilonarebcake on March 2nd, 2010 09:50 am (UTC)
I can see this, and it makes sense.

My only point of departure is that I don't see anything in the text to make me think that Andrew's little charade in Rome convinces Spike that Buffy knows he's alive. Andrew never says anything explicitly, and Spike very well knows how slippery the little geek is. I just don't think that he would necessarily take away, "Buffy knows and doesn't care" from that exchange. "Buffy's living her life and is doing okay" might be enough to keep him from pushing for more contact, though. He certainly didn't hear "Buffy's falling apart and needs help," which would have had him by her side in an instant. Probably. I'd like to know why he didn't try to find out if she was okay sooner, myself.
2maggie22maggie2 on March 2nd, 2010 12:57 pm (UTC)
I don't know if Spike took away the idea that she knows and doesn't care. I know *I* took away that idea. TGIQ bugged me a lot. And bro - who is my "Buffy loves Spike" guru, was so sure that Buffy loved Spike that he was equally sure that TGIQ wasn't on the up and up... that Andrew was lying or something. It's hard to know how closely to parse TGIQ because it was played for broad comedy. But both Angel and Spike believe Andrew; they think they see confirmation of it with their own eyes; and they get word from others that Buffy and the Immortal are an item. So I don't think we're meant to think that either of them had any reason to NOT believe Andrew. And if you believe Andrew, the inference follows. Buffy's partying it up with someone else shortly after Spike died.

Spike had overwhelming proof that everything was fine with Buffy when he got to W&H. Angel says she's fine. Everyone else is acting like she's fine. Why would he think she's not fine? She should be in the middle of the post-apocalyptic breather. I agree that if he had the slightest notion that she wasn't fine that he'd have gone after her immediately.

(no subject) - penny_lane_42 on March 2nd, 2010 02:57 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - 2maggie2 on March 2nd, 2010 04:16 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - penny_lane_42 on March 2nd, 2010 04:40 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - 2maggie2 on March 3rd, 2010 12:44 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ms_scarletibis on March 2nd, 2010 03:20 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - 2maggie2 on March 3rd, 2010 01:05 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ms_scarletibis on March 3rd, 2010 01:14 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - 2maggie2 on March 3rd, 2010 05:02 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ms_scarletibis on March 3rd, 2010 05:08 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - 2maggie2 on March 3rd, 2010 05:18 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ms_scarletibis on March 3rd, 2010 05:21 am (UTC) (Expand)
Mrs Darcy: Spike - fighting for his soul by awmpelisi on March 2nd, 2010 09:54 am (UTC)
I think he believed her. I also think that he feels that Buffy deserves someone better than him, and that 'No you don't' was an instruction.
2maggie22maggie2 on March 2nd, 2010 12:58 pm (UTC)
So many different ways to look at it! I do agree with you about the middle part -- that he thought Buffy deserved someone better than him.
Shapinglight: effulgentshapinglight on March 2nd, 2010 11:03 am (UTC)
I've never thought he believed her. Like you, I think after SR he considered himself completely unworthy of her, would never presume to ask for anything (which is why it costs him so much to finally ask her for help in the cellar in Sleeper), and just assumes she never would, or could, love him.

That said, I don't think he's got over her at all. I think he still loves her.

And I have no clue what she feels.
2maggie22maggie2 on March 2nd, 2010 01:01 pm (UTC)
Agree that he's not over her at all. The arguments that she did love him are persuasive to me, or at least to my brain. But like Spike, I'm not sure what it means. Season 8 hasn't been helpful in that regard.
(no subject) - shapinglight on March 2nd, 2010 01:09 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - angearia on March 2nd, 2010 09:41 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - 2maggie2 on March 3rd, 2010 12:59 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - angearia on March 3rd, 2010 01:12 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - 2maggie2 on March 3rd, 2010 05:14 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - eowyn_315 on March 3rd, 2010 07:36 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ms_scarletibis on March 3rd, 2010 04:08 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - 2maggie2 on March 3rd, 2010 05:15 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ms_scarletibis on March 3rd, 2010 05:22 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - 2maggie2 on March 3rd, 2010 05:37 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ms_scarletibis on March 3rd, 2010 05:40 am (UTC) (Expand)
empresspattiempresspatti on March 2nd, 2010 11:35 am (UTC)
I really agree with your meta. Which makes me sad because I keep hoping against hope that someday those crazy kids will be together.

But I doubt it!
2maggie22maggie2 on March 2nd, 2010 01:02 pm (UTC)
Yeah, I'm with you on the hoping. That's why my favorite story would be the one where Buffy finds out what Andrew was up to in Rome and takes it on herself to do something about it. (Preferably without punching Spike on the nose).
(no subject) - empresspatti on March 3rd, 2010 02:05 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - 2maggie2 on March 3rd, 2010 02:25 am (UTC) (Expand)
slaymesoftlyslaymesoftly on March 2nd, 2010 12:32 pm (UTC)
Very well thought out and insightful.
2maggie22maggie2 on March 2nd, 2010 01:02 pm (UTC)
Thank you!
Lirazel: [btvs] just a smokescreenpenny_lane_42 on March 2nd, 2010 03:06 pm (UTC)
This made my day: He became what he wanted (effulgent).
Beautifully put.

I certainly think there are dozens of ways of interpreting all of this and that anyone's thoughts on it are as legitimate as anyone else's. So I would never argue and tell you that you're wrong. And you've definitely laid out why you feel that way in a very straightforward and well-reasoned way. Go you!

But I just can't believe that in that moment when she finally says it, he doesn't believe her. I could believe that he thinks that's not enough or that she deserves more or something, but not believe her? There's flaming hands! Look into her eyes! She's nearly bursting with love and pride and joy, and all of it's for him and what he's become! *loves that scene*

I do think you're right that Spike doesn't take the initiative again in S7, and I think that's okay. But Buffy hasn't looked at anyone since Angel the way she looks at Spike in S7, so I also don't understand how people can think she didn't love him (see: molly_may's picspam of beauty and happiness). So she didn't say it till the last minute. With Buffy it's actionactionaction anyway. In my mind, the two of them just have to figure out that their love languages are different, that he needs words the way she needs actions. That's why I like to see Buffy say "I love you, you're important to me" in fic and have it not be easy for her (because it isn't), have her fight herself to say it because she knows it's important to him.

All of this is why my thoughts line up more with deird1's latest post than anything else. Hope is what I do. About everything.

But again! That's just my interpretation! Yours is valid and intelligent.

Also, I am unreasonably sad that I haven't been able to read your bro's meta. It sounds lovely.
2maggie22maggie2 on March 2nd, 2010 04:23 pm (UTC)
Molly's pictures are very persuasive! But my point isn't that Buffy doesn't love him -- it's that Spike isn't looking for signs that she loves him for all the reasons I gave. He's misread those cues before, he's not going to let himself do it again. Our assumptions frame what we see. Spike's assumptions in season 7 aren't going to let him see Buffy feeling romantic love for him.

Can I ask whether you see the story more from Buffy's POV or from Spike's? Cause I can see why Buffy POV people would think that Spike believed her. It's my Spike POV that makes me sure that he didn't.

Anyway, we do all see it different! If I can dig up bro's meta and get permission to republish I'll do it!
(no subject) - penny_lane_42 on March 2nd, 2010 04:45 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - gabrielleabelle on March 2nd, 2010 07:33 pm (UTC) (Expand)
ms_scarletibis: Randy talks TVms_scarletibis on March 2nd, 2010 03:12 pm (UTC)
Excellently put, Maggie. Excellently put. You expressed beautifully how I felt about the whole thing.

But Spike's lesson in Seeing Red is that he can NOT trust his instincts about what Buffy feels. Whatever he might sense from her, Buffy does NOT love him. And he needs to be sure that he hears her when she says No.
But we don't have anything like Spike's elaborate defense against ever letting anything remotely like Seeing Red happen again. But he does have that defense. And in the world view that goes with it, she's thanking her dying friend for his loyalty by letting him hear the words they both know he's always wanted to hear. And so he thanks her for saying it.

Spike doesn't go hiving off to see Buffy after he gets back. I think it's because he quickly learns that she's doing fine and doesn't need him. I think it's because he wants space to start getting over his own feelings for her.


I'll stop at risk of quoting your whole entry, but those were my faves. Thank you.

2maggie22maggie2 on March 2nd, 2010 04:24 pm (UTC)
Thanks!!
eowyn_315: Spike smokingeowyn_315 on March 2nd, 2010 06:23 pm (UTC)
Very much word. I think I see things from both Buffy and Spike's POV, because I am convinced both that Buffy really did love him, and that Spike really didn't believe her. And that plays into how I see their entire relationship in S7 - a series of miscommunications and missed signals. The Buffy POV people are right, Buffy's actions are totally screaming "I love you" the entire season. But the Spike POV people are right, too, because Spike is totally missing it, possibly deliberately, as a defense mechanism.

I really liked your point about Seeing Red, and how the AR has made Spike unable to trust his instincts about Buffy. He could very well be seeing the same signs the rest of us do, but he's telling himself it doesn't mean anything because he doesn't want to make that mistake again. And then he asks Buffy what it means, and she doesn't seem to think it has to mean anything, so yeah. It makes perfect sense to me that he wouldn't believe her, even with the evidence right in front of his face.
ms_scarletibis: Angelms_scarletibis on March 2nd, 2010 07:53 pm (UTC)
The Buffy POV people are right, Buffy's actions are totally screaming "I love you" the entire season. But the Spike POV people are right, too, because Spike is totally missing it, possibly deliberately, as a defense mechanism.

That is a most nifty way of looking at that. Yep :)
(no subject) - prophecygirrl on March 3rd, 2010 04:01 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - 2maggie2 on March 3rd, 2010 01:02 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - eowyn_315 on March 3rd, 2010 07:39 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Owenowenthurman on March 2nd, 2010 10:01 pm (UTC)
Yup, that is what I saw on the screen. I read a lot of hopeful writing this week about how Spike did believe her but maybe he was trying to send her away peacefully or happy. Then there were responses suggesting maybe she didn't really mean it in her own heart.

She did mean it and he didn't believe her.

In TGIQ at the apartment Angel really seems in distress at Andrew's descriptions on Buffy's new beau and their cuddles. Spike isn't nearly as expressive and that is a reversal of their usual stances in stress. I take it that Spike has already accepted that he isn't going to have a future with Buffy.

In the very next episode, Spike is out in the city with a charming lady demon fighter and says, "little field trip out in the --- well, what passes in this city for fresh air. All we need now is to bag ourselves a Boretz demon. We got ourselves a perfect date." If Buffy stress were weighing on him so much, he wouldn't be suggesting that.

So Spike has moved on. I'm not sure he'd be available under any circumstances for more romance with Buffy. Haven't you ever seen someone fall deep in love in a less than ideal relationship who then grows out of it? They may feel strongly about it for (un-) life but might not want to relive it.

Meanwhile in EoD, probably the worst plotted episode of the series, Buffy is pretty as clear about her intentions as I ever expect to see.

SPIKE: Were you there with me?
BUFFY: I was.
SPIKE: What does that mean?
BUFFY: I don't know. Does it have to mean something?
SPIKE: No. Not right now.
BUFFY: (NERVOUS, HESITANT) Maybe when---
SPIKE: (INTERRUPTING) No. Let's just leave it.
BUFFY: Okay.

Well, he isn't going to let her ask him to try out a real relationship, but that's obviously what she's getting at. He's terrified of what it might mean, and doubts whether he could manage it, and whether she could really mean it. And since he isn't making it easy anymore, she never manages to get him to agree to try.

He isn't ever going to chase her again after SR. He never makes another even vaguely romantic move toward her after that. It is her initiative, but he resists a little and she never takes it. He even admits he's terrified when she gets close to making her move. Spike came back to Sunnydale to make it all up to her, but sure that she would never force him to face the reality of building a relationship with her again. Death and rejection he can deal with, but that scares him.

For Buffy's part, which I might feel a little better because I'm more a Buffy than a Spike in relationships, I don't see her love as a switch. She doesn't just flip her status one day from "it's complicated" to "in a relationship with Spike." There's attraction (check!) and trust and respect and friendship all mixed in. Love isn't something that you turn on and off but actions every day. And Buffy convinced me that she loved Spike. She just about asked him to try a relationship again and probably thought he would be ready when they beat the First.

Buffy is emotionally steadier than Spike so hope for future Spuffiness has to rest with her. He isn't ever going to go after her again. And I really want them to end up together with all my shippery heart. I'm afraid that she and I will both be disappointed, though.
2maggie22maggie2 on March 3rd, 2010 01:00 am (UTC)
Interesting readings! I'm not as sure that Spike has moved on, but I totally agree that the ball has to be in Buffy's court at this point. The tragedy being that since Buffy likely doesn't know he's back, she doesn't know the ball is in her court. That's be classic Joss.
spikes_kittykatspikes_kittykat on March 3rd, 2010 01:17 am (UTC)
I have to say, I believe that Spike was convinced through lack of self esteem and through Buffy's previous actions that she never could and never did love him. I agree with how you viewed the SR scene. I also would like to add that I feel (I hesitate to say this because real life is never like this) that it was brought to that point by Buffy's previous actions. I’d like to also claim that Buffy was stronger than Spike as seen later on in the scene when she flings him off her hard enough to bang against the wall on the opposite side of the bathroom. This to me suggests that it could never go further than Buffy allowed as Buffy could have stopped it and did stop it with just a single action. This allows me to state that for this scene Buffy was as much to blame for this as Spike was. Buffy had said no only to give in stating yes many times in the past. We see it in Tabula Rasa when she turns away only to make out with him. We see it again in Wrecked when she says no only to make out with him. We see it yet again in Gone when she tells him to leave her alone only to chase after him later on. Even in Older and Far away when she's caught by Tara only then does she disappear even after stating, "They might see." So with all those examples swimming around in Spike’s head, why should this particular time be any different? Buffy is one big bundle of no turning into yes so up until this point Spike probably thought her no was yes and that meant her not loving him really meant she did. This fits perfectly with your Spike POV about her feelings.

I do believe Buffy felt love for Spike probably even in Season 6 which shows that Spike did know Buffy even though by Season 7 he was convinced he didn’t. She yelled towards Willow, “Why does everyone assume I’m still in love with Spike?” Buffy doesn’t throw the word love around lightly. She doesn’t claim to love anyone that she doesn’t and usually other than with Angel, she doesn’t use it in the romantic sense so this shout by her towards Willow is a big deal to me. It shows that Buffy did indeed love Spike and by her actions throughout season 7 it is shown time and time again that she loved him.

(I must write too much. I'm having to put it into two parts so I can put the last 100 characters onto the end of my statements)
2maggie22maggie2 on March 3rd, 2010 05:34 am (UTC)
You know the AR is tricky territory. I am between you and the rape is always rape crowd. I don't think we can blame Buffy. By modern rules, yes means no stuff doesn't give license for things like what happened in the bathroom. But. This is a special couple, and Buffy always, always, always, used her fists to say no. Hell, she used her fists on a whim. And both Buffy and Spike had agreed way back in School Hard that she's not the begging sort. So I think Spike has mitigating circumstances. He's guilty of something. But he was drunk and probably didn't recognize her highly OOC pleadings for what they were. He'd have expected the no to be him getting slammed to the wall. And when he got that signal he did stop. We don't have a vocabulary for rape the way we do for murder (different degrees, manslaughter and so on). Spike's not guilty of first degree rape. He is guilty of something. (Long winded way of saying that while I don't think she's to blame, I don't think he's guilty of what is ordinarily meant by the term attempted rape).

But that's all an aside. The "still" was not in the shooting script. And whether she "loved" him in season 6 depends a lot on what you mean by the word love. She had a connection with him and a strong sexual attraction, for sure. She also pounded his face into hamburger and didn't worry about leaving him in an alleyway unable to get up on his own.

Interesting points about how much Angel didn't know about Buffy in AtS season 5. Come to think of it, it'll be a really interesting development if Angel-deflection is *the* reason there was a decoy in Rome.

Glad you also think Buffy doesn't know he's alive. And, yeah, Joss doesn't do happy endings. I just hope he leaves us set up with the possibility of one.
spikes_kittykatspikes_kittykat on March 3rd, 2010 01:19 am (UTC)
As for the Andrew scenes in Angel Season 5, I wasn't surprised by them. If you remember back to Season 4 when Angel and the gang didn't want to take the jobs they were offered, they didn't want to for a single reason, it was working for an evil law firm. Instead of ridding the world of evil they were instead representing them and getting them off of jail time and other things. This bothered Angel at first. I think Buffy and Giles along with anyone else who viewed that would see it the same way. They don't want the good (Meaning slayers) to be mixed up with that. I don’t think Andrew totally made up that statement. I think he had heard it somewhere along the line and used it at that perfect moment as he often does. He exaggerates mostly instead of just making things up. He’s the perfect storyteller as stated earlier by others but he is that because he’s able to take a statement and toss it around to put it in a perfect tale. If you don't feel that Buffy felt this way then why else would Angel be chasing decoys around different countries all because his 'stalker buddies' told him it was Buffy. Wouldn't he have known from Buffy herself that she wasn't even in Italy but instead in Scotland? Wouldn’t he have known that Buffy wasn’t even with the Immortal but had sent some random girl to take her place to appear that way? I think Joss had this take place as a big red flag telling us that Angel and Buffy were no more on the same side or at least Buffy didn’t feel they were…

As for Buffy knowing Spike was alive, I tend to think she doesn't know. Why would Andrew tell Buffy? What he would possibly gain from it? Andrew’s actions in the past always were for his own personal gain and he would have nothing to gain from telling Buffy that Spike was alive. We all know Willow isn’t going to tell Buffy and neither will Giles so I honestly feel to this point in the series Buffy doesn’t know he is alive. She believes he went down as a hero in the hellmouth and is gone forever. So I agree with you. The ending is classic Joss.

I hesitate to want a reunion because I don’t think it would be a happy one. Joss in general doesn’t do happy endings so anything going forward with Spuffy would be a tragic goodbye scene as he did with every other happy couple, Oz and Willow, Willow and Tara, Giles and Jenny, Xander and Anya, Angel and Buffy, Fred and Wesley….need I go on? Death or sad goodbyes are the way things end…I like it better leaving an open ending to the Spuffy sega which we can repeat and rewrite in fanfictions.

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2maggie22maggie2 on March 3rd, 2010 05:19 am (UTC)
Thanks Sweetie!!
francy_m79: spikefrancy_m79 on September 11th, 2010 05:12 pm (UTC)
I've just found this, Maggie...

I agree with every single word, and it's breaking my heart all over again! :(
2maggie22maggie2 on September 12th, 2010 01:16 am (UTC)
Sorry to be breaking your heart all over. :( But I'm proud of our guy, and the way he carries on!